MS. GIVHAN: Welcome to Washington Post Live. I’m Robin Givhan, senior critic-at-large, and I write about race, politics, and the arts, and today we’re kicking off a new series, Opportunity in Crisis.
Our first program today is about how to build a more just and inclusive society in the aftermath of a year of racial protests over racial injustice as well as the outsized impact of the coronavirus pandemic on communities of color.
My first guests today, I’m delighted to welcome former 2020 presidential candidate and HUD secretary Julián Castro and Representative Marilyn Strickland of Washington State. Thank you both so much for being here.
MR. CASTRO: Good to be with you.
REP. STRICKLAND: Thank you for having me.
MS. GIVHAN: I thought I would start with the big picture, with the enormous, overwhelming, outsized picture which is after the last year from the protests for racial justice, the COVID-19 impact. How are you feeling in terms of the way in which these two different crises expose disparities in our country and our society? And I’ll start with you, Secretary Castro.
MR. CASTRO: Yeah. Well, first, thank you so much for having me, Robin, and glad to participate this morning.
I guess if I had to put it into a couple of words, I would say right now feeling more hopeful than I felt in a while. I think all of us have been dispirited in different ways over the last year, either because of what we’ve experienced personally or what we’ve watched around us and people that we care about and folks in the nation at large and around the world because of the pandemic, because of the recession, because of racial reckoning after the murder of George Floyd. We also know that all of these things go to very deep-seated challenges within our country and our world.
I’m feeling hopeful because I think that the last year engrained in many more people’s minds the need for change and because at least policy-wise right now, we have more of an opportunity for change than we have in a very long time with more of the public understanding the need for it, feeling it right now.
I also believe, you know, we’re going to talk about crisis and how they’re connected. I think one of the crises in our country has been–in addition to, you know, rank inequality in different ways, it’s been a lack of a common sense of identity and purpose, and in an ironic, sad but ironic way, the fact that we all went through this pandemic in different ways–the most vulnerable were affected the most, but in different ways, the fact that all of us went through this pandemic was a common experience in some ways that I think can provide the building blocks for creating the change that we need.
And, you know, I would say that you’re starting to see that to some extent. I would put the American Rescue Plan and its scope, its size into that category. So, I’m feeling more optimistic now than I have in while.
MS. GIVHAN: I mean, just following up on that, I mean, I need a little optimism right now, but at the same time, looking back over the way in which the country did react to the pandemic and continues to act, in many ways, it seemed to heighten our differences and heighten sort of the infighting. I’m wondering how do you see those two tensions, the fact that we were all going through something together, and at the same time, we seemed to be fighting with each other while we were doing so.
MR. CASTRO: Yeah. You know, the other day, I was talking to somebody, and they were recounting to me the rollout of the polio vaccine and how much more smoothly it seemed to go and that there was this sort of spirit of we can tackle this, you know, we can conquer it.
I agree with you that the experience has demonstrated our differences, right? I mean, people refusing to wear their masks and the very idea of wearing a mask or the mandatory mask becoming part of the political fight in this country, but I also think of it in practical terms, I guess, having been in politics, of that you need to get to 50 plus 1, and if the question is are there more people now, so that you get to 50 plus 1 with a vision of working toward making sure that people in this country can live with dignity, that we think of that as a human right, the ability to live with dignity, and then actually work on everything that would go with that, health care as a human right, housing as a human right. You know, you have these cities now that are exploring universal basic income. I think we’re getting closer to that, and that you have in Washington, D.C., a president who it seems like early on in his administration has thrown off this idea, this conventional wisdom that used to take hold and you can only get one or two big things done in your first term or at least in the first year. There seems to be more of an ambition, and I think that ambition is fueled by maybe a thin majority, a bare majority, but enough people that have said, “Okay. Things have to change in this country.”
MS. GIVHAN: Representative Strickland, I would love to ask you if you see the Biden administration as taking advantage of this moment and having great ambition in terms of what it can do to create a more equitable society.
REP. STRICKLAND: Well, you know, I would say this. I agree with what Secretary Castro said about feeling hopeful but also a reminder that a lot of us feel exhausted, both physically and emotionally, and coming out of this now, we are optimistic because what we have been missing for too long in this country is leadership from the White House.
So here we are in a pandemic, a year into it, and now we finally have leadership that is telling us that we do have to produce more vaccines. We do have to mask up. We have leadership now working with Congress that says racial disparities are real.
And I think about what happened with the policing, and of course, as we’re watching the trial of the police officer who killed George Floyd unfold, the Black Lives Matter movement is something that really started a conversation about the reckoning of race in this country. But think about this: It took the visceral, visual murder of George Floyd for a lot of other organizations to come around.
We hear about some of the largest companies in the country now making a commitment to equity and putting money into African American organizations, and then the pandemic takes place. And we just saw the giant disparities that have been around for a long time in housing, in access to health care, in how people of color interact with the health care system, in education, in disparities when it comes to access to rural and urban broadband, the gaps in wealth. And so, as I think about what we can do moving forward, I do feel optimistic.
And the Biden administration, you said are they taking advantage of this to do some bold things. They’re doing what is necessary, and as mentioned about the American Rescue Plan or pillars, getting vaccines into the arms of people, helping our economy come back, getting students back in school, and getting cash into people’s hands, these are things that we must do if we’re going to come out of this. But now we’re doing it through the lens of racial equity, and we’re doing so in an unapologetic way.
I think our challenge here is going to be helping people understand that when we talk about racial equity, this is not zero-sum game. When we address racial disparities, it uplifts everyone, and that’s good for the entire country, the entire community, and it’s good for all of us.
And then, finally, I’d like to say too, we talk about the division that exists. The American Rescue Plan was approved and popular with the vast majority of the American public, both the Democrats and Republicans. Where there was division was in the Capitol because not one single Republican voted for it, but we’re moving on because we are here to do the people’s work.
MS. GIVHAN: You brought up the trial of Derek Chauvin who is the former Minneapolis police officer charged in the death of George Floyd. I’m wondering, for you, Representative Strickland, also Secretary Castro, with so much attention, and rightfully so, is on this trial, but, I mean, how much of an inflection point do you think this trial is in helping the country sort of grapple with racial inequity, particularly when it comes to policing?
REP. STRICKLAND: You know, I would say that this is going to be a proof point of whether or not people can have their faith restored in our government systems because right now people have lost faith in our institutions and especially with policing, and I remind folks that when that video came out of the police officer with his knee on the neck of George Floyd, you had police departments around the country denouncing this. And I remind people too that George Floyd is not the one who is on trial. It is Chauvin, and so it will be interesting for me to see how this dialogue plays out and what the result is at the end. But, in many ways, this is going to be a pretty big litmus test about whether we can trust institutions to do the right thing and how we are able to move forward as a nation when it comes to policing, when it comes to safety, and again, what it means to be a full participant in this country who’s treated with respect and dignity.
MR. CASTRO: Yeah. I feel–
MS. GIVHAN: I’m sorry. Please go ahead.
MR. CASTRO: Oh, sorry. You know, I think about this, and look, I mean, everybody knows that there has been a long and consistent history of police abuse, police violence, especially to communities of color, especially to Black men and women. That’s been going on forever, but I think about the reasons why the murder of George Floyd is different because it was on video, because everybody is sort of deputized with their cell phones these days. This is not going to stop. You’re going to continue to see these types of incidents on camera. That didn’t happen even in the days of Rodney King in the early ’90s. Something has fundamentally changed, and this is going to be right front and center for Americans to watch all the time.
And I’m encouraged in a just practical way because in communities around the country, there are changes that are being made. There are valid initiatives out there.
In my hometown of San Antonio in about six weeks, we’ll vote, for instance, on whether to terminate the ability of the police union to collectively bargain and then basically start over so that they can’t bargain with regard to issues related to transparency, accountability, and discipline. Now, I don’t know whether that’s going to pass, but that wouldn’t even have been on the ballot five years ago, ten years ago.
Politicians are speaking up for issues of accountability and transparency and against this abusive system that we have without fear in a way that I guess I would analogize to the way folks are speaking up against the NRA now, that they wouldn’t 15 years ago, 20 years ago.
So, I am hopeful that it is an inflection point. I’m also, of course, hopeful that this defendant is going to be found guilty because I’m afraid of what’s going to happen if he’s not.
MS. GIVHAN: When we talk about this trial and restoring faith in our institutions, in many ways, we as Americans are, in fact, our institutions. So, it’s a little bit like asking if we can find faith in each other.
I’m wondering if each of you could talk a little bit about the role of importance of allyship in moving forward, particularly in light of the rise in violence towards those of Asian and Pacific Islander descent.
REP. STRICKLAND: Well, you know, I will start by going back to the Black Lives Matter movement, and it’s interesting because I keep coming back to the murder of George Floyd. But that was such a significant moment in the history and direction of this country.
And I remember seeing my friends–well, first of all, I am Black and Korean. So, I am both African American and Asian American, and I say that to give this context. And I remember having friends of mine who were Asian American having T-shirts and things that said “Asians for Black Lives” and, you know, “Koreans for Black Lives.” And I think about this violence that’s happening now with the Asian American community and the Stop Asian Hate. We had a day of action last Friday. There were rallies across the country over the weekend.
But what I see happening too is you see a multiethnic, multiracial coalition forming, and there were lots of African Americans who reached out to me saying, “What can we do to support you?” And so, the violence that’s been happening against the Asian American community, it started peaking in 2020, you know, a 150 percent rise in reported crimes against Asian Americans, which implies that we don’t even know what’s going unreported.
But I think there’s an allyship that’s happening where people are starting to come together, and going back to what Secretary Castro said about feeling hopeful, this could be one of those moments when people are coming together.
Are these relationships all perfect historically? Absolutely not, but think about the history of this country, the slaves who came here of African descent, the genocide of Native Americans, the expulsion of the Chinese, the internment of Japanese Americans, the way that we have historically treated Spanish-speaking people who want to come here for a better life and then now this anti-Asian violence. And so, in many ways, there’s an opportunity here for our allies of all backgrounds to come together and think about how we denounce and how we take actions against this violence.
MR. CASTRO: Yeah. I share this appreciation for the allyship that has been developed and has been developed over the generations.
My mom was a Chicana activist, and so I grew up in an active household, politically active household, but it was clear. And she and many others from that Chicana movement have talked about the fact that the Civil Rights movement, the Black-led Civil Rights movement laid a foundation for their activism, and that there was allyship back then. And that’s been true for a long time.
There have also been tensions, but today I think now more than ever, we see that allyship. You saw that in Atlanta after what happened there. I think you’re seeing it at a national level. I think you’re seeing it in Congress, and Representative Strickland is a wonderful example of that. And that makes me believe that we can achieve the changes in policy and, hopefully, in like spirit and attitude that we need to in this country. I think that allyship works toward that in a beneficial way, toward both of those things in a beneficial way.
MS. GIVHAN: Representative Strickland, what kind of policies would you like to see enacted? I mean, what kind of policies can help sort of change hearts and minds?
REP. STRICKLAND: Well, you know, Secretary Castro talked about allyship, and the one place I am seeing and hearing it more than anywhere else right now is voting rights. If you think about the fact that there are over 200 pieces of legislation across the U.S. trying to suppress the vote, keeping people from voting, eliminating mail-in ballots, and really trying to again revisit and challenge the election that we just had, everyone seems to be coalescing about voting rights, talking about the election was legitimate in 2020 and these actions just need to go. So, I would like to see us in Congress pass H.R. 1, the For the People Act, which deals with voting rights and deals with opportunities for people to really think about how elections can be legitimate and clean.
There’s also H.R. 4, the John Lewis Voting Rights Act, and then there’s just the whole suite of things that we want to do. We want commonsense gun ownership, universal background checks popular with the general public, not so much bipartisan in Congress. We want people to have to–you know, we want semiautomatic weapons to not be able to get into the hands of civilians because they are weapons of war meant to kill large numbers of people very quickly. We want to make sure that we’re standing up for women’s rights, and so there’s a whole suite of things that we want to do to really help restore faith in institutions but address some of these inequities and then, of course, the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act, which was passed by the House, which is now sitting in the Senate.
So, the question for me is, is the United States Senate going to step up and do what they can? Because, as you know, we’re going to need some Republicans to be honest about where they stand on things and vote with us to deliver for the American people and address some of these huge structural issues.
MS. GIVHAN: Well, Representative Strickland, I’m curious. I mean, you’re a freshman congresswoman, and I would assume that you arrive in Washington with great optimism and glass-half-full point of view. I mean, has the optimism been sucked out of you already? I mean, it seems like there’s no bipartisanship.
[Laughter]
REP. STRICKLAND: No. You know, the optimism remains strong, and I say this because this is something the secretary and I both share. We are both former mayors, and we met at the White House when he was the mayor of San Antonio and I was the mayor of Tacoma. And I think when you have that lens and you come to D.C., you know how things can be effective and how they can get done. So, you have this understanding of how government should be working, because at the end we’re trying to help our local communities be successful.
So, yes, there is some pessimism, but we do have a majority. We are a nation in crisis. We’re still in a pandemic. There is a racial reckoning, and this economy needs to get back on track. And we have to address the pandemic to do that.
So, I’m optimistic because there’s a majority. The American people have expectations of what we’re going to do, and as they start to see the results of the American Rescue Plan, I believe that they are going to start to have faith in our institutions again. And so, yeah, it’s divided, no doubt, but at the same time, there’s opportunity for us to do really good work.
And the House has passed landmark legislation, but the question again comes to what is the Senate going to do, and are we going to do things like get rid of the filibuster or adjust it? Because right now, the American people need our help, and we have a two-year window to get it done and really again helping people, getting cash in people’s hands, getting vaccines in arms, and doing what we can and doing what the American people expect us to do when they send us to Washington, D.C.
MS. GIVHAN: Secretary Castro, when you were running for president, you spoke often about immigration, and it is such a long-standing, intractable issue, and there are moral imperatives and then there are structural ones. I mean, what would you like most to see the Biden administration do in that regard?
MR. CASTRO: Well, I think the administration has done a lot of good things. Obviously, they’ve turned away from the cruelty of Donald Trump and have started to introduce this commonsense and compassionate approach to people, ending the Remain in Mexico program, treating unaccompanied minors better, trying to get them out of these facilities that they’re in, whether they’re CBP facilities or HHS-sponsored facilities, and into the loving homes of relatives who often live here in the country. So, it’s night and day in the approach and the intent.
MS. GIVHAN: But there’s still that clog of people coming, stuck essentially in the pipeline.
MR. CASTRO: Yeah. Number one, they need to invest resources in getting people to–these unaccompanied minors to loving homes immediately. HHS needs to be focused on that and DHS as well.
Secondly, Trump put Title 42 in place, essentially, which allows the administration for health-related reasons, related to the pandemic, to expel people summarily. Trump was doing that even with kids. Biden is not doing that with these children. He’s allowing them to come in, but Title 42 is still in place with regard to many of the adults. I would like to see it sunsetted sooner rather than later because Trump–the Trump administration policy should not be our new default, our new normal.
And most of all, Robin, we need to get away in this country from seeing these folks as less than human and as a threat and fearing them and accepting the idea that somehow, they’re going to come here and ruin this country.
When I was running for president, I made that clear as, yeah, of course, look, every country is going to have its border, its boundaries, but it’s also clear that through the generations, immigrants, including undocumented immigrants and certainly including people seeking asylum, have been a net positive to our country.
And the truth is that 20 years from now, 30 years from now, the United States, like some other countries around the world, may be begging for immigrants to come because our birth rate is going down. We have folks that are drawing on Social Security like never before. You need a young, vibrant workforce, and also the replenishment of all of those same values that have made ours a special country, that these immigrants, wherever they’re from, whether Latin America, Asian countries, African countries, they add to our country.
So, my long-term hope, past the Biden administration, past the next four years, is that we’re going to be big enough in this country to actually acknowledge the human value and worth of folks. That’s a long way off, I think. I’m not naïve about that, but that’s my long-term hope.
MS. GIVHAN: Well, before I let you go, I would like to get in at least one audience question, and that is from MK Bowman in Washington, Washington State. The question is, how big of a problem is the perception or reality of folks on the left being too woke to realistically work with Republicans on the social issues that we’ve been talking about? And maybe, Representative Strickland, since that’s one of your constituents, I’ll let you have the first go at that.
REP. STRICKLAND: Well, I could answer this question. I have to do a quick version here. So much of our political discourse is based on how we consume information, and in 2007, when I first ran for local government, you got your news from three sources: the television, the newspaper, or the radio. The explosion of social media has been great because it’s connected people. It’s reunited people. You can get information out, but it also makes it so incredibly easy to go into an echo chamber and only believe the people who believe exactly what you do. It’s kind of ruined our political discourse.
So, as far as this idea of the woke dominating a party or making it hard to do anything, I would say that there is space for everyone in the political spectrum, and everyone deserves a voice. But I think the question becomes a conversation about shared values, whether you’re a Democrat or a Republican. Do you believe in treating people with respect and dignity? Do you believe that opportunity should be available to all people? Do you believe in equal protection of the law? Do you believe that everyone has the ability to retire with dignity? Do you believe that we should all have access to affordable health care? Do we understand that climate change is a national security issue, a food security issue, and in some places, an immigration issue?
So, for me, it’s not about where you are in the spectrum. It’s about our shared values as parties and as a nation, and that’s where we need to go if we’re going to address some of these big challenges.
MS. GIVHAN: And, Secretary Castro, would you like to weigh in on that?
MR. CASTRO: Yeah. Look, I mean, I know that there’s been a lot of conversation about, quote/unquote, “wokeness” and how the forces that get in the way. I mean, actually, I think what’s in the way right now are too many people who are so used to undervaluing other people and treating them less than themselves, and there’s something that’s woke. The idea of being woke is that you’re going to try and treat everybody with dignity and respect, as Representative Strickland said. Can people sometimes be touchy about that in the way we use certain words? You know, of course, sure, but often it’s generated. It comes from–it emanates from wanting to make sure that people who have traditionally been undervalued are actually respected, and that’s something laudable.
I do think that, ultimately, people can work together–that was part of the question–that we need some fundamental reforms, redistricting reform, getting around Citizens United, but I’m hopeful that we actually can come together and make sure that we create a country where no matter who you are, you know that we’re sensitive to the needs of people to make sure that they get the shot that they deserve.
MS. GIVHAN: Well, I’m afraid that with that, we are going to have to call it a wrap. Unfortunately, that’s all the time that we have.
So, Representative Strickland, Secretary Castro, thank you so much for being with me today. I very much appreciate it.
MR. CASTRO: Thank you.
REP. STRICKLAND: Thank you for having us.
MS. GIVHAN: And I hope you’ll stay with me because in just a few moments, we will be back with Ford Foundation president Darren Walker. I’ll see you soon.
[Video plays]
MS. MESERVE: Hello. I’m Jeanne Meserve. The Black Lives Matter protests of last summer spurred many organizations to reexamine their positions on equity and inclusion, including tech companies like IT giant Cisco, which has more than 70,000 employees in 100 countries.
Joining me here today is Shari Slate. Shari is Cisco’s chief inclusion and collaboration officer. She’s also vice president of Inclusive Future and Strategy at Cisco.
Shari, let me start with this. Cisco was in the middle of a pandemic, and yet you decided to deal with social justice as well. Why did you decide you had to do that?
MS. SLATE: Jeanne, it’s an undeniable truth that we are living with two pandemics. Injustice and inequity are pandemics too.
What we know is that history has taught us that from crisis can come opportunity, and there is a significant opportunity in this moment, an opportunity for companies to show up differently in how they lead with action.
MS. MESERVE: You came up with a social justice beliefs and action plan. I think it was five beliefs, 12 actions. How did you come up with those, and why did you take that approach?
MS. SLATE: Oh, Jeanne, you know, we have–we didn’t just start this journey last year. We’ve been on it for quite some time. For 20-plus years, we have worked to tackle injustice and inequity. We’ve learned a lot along the way. It has shaped our values and our culture as a company. There have been moments like HB2 in North Carolina that were pivotal for us in how we set expectations for our employees that we were going to be in the social justice conversations, and they made us ready for what happened June 1st last year against the backdrop of incomprehensible murders of Breonna Taylor, Ahmaud Aubrey, and George Floyd.
Our CEO called an all-company meeting, and when he did, he invited us into a conversation that was raw and real and painful and ugly. And then what happened after that spoke volumes, Jeanne. What he did was he postponed our largest company meeting with our employees, with our customers, with our suppliers. It was called “Cisco Live,” and the signal that he went to make space for healing and understanding and reflection was profound. It actually birthed our beliefs and the actions that I can’t wait to tell you about.
MS. MESERVE: Yeah, please do. What are, briefly, the beliefs and the actions?
MS. SLATE: So, Jeanne, we have 12 actions, and those actions are focused in areas that will drive sustainable change. They’re internal and external, but they are built on five beliefs. Those beliefs are we believe in technology for good. We believe in justice and that it’s apolitical. We believe in addressing the insecurity of being. We believe in coalescence of our employees, customers, partners, and suppliers, and we believe in getting proximate to the challenges that we face so that we can have the empathy to change them. Those are our beliefs that will guide our actions anywhere in the world where we see injustice.
Now, our actions, they are internal and external. Let’s start with the external ones because it will feel they are the most different. We have put a significant amount of money behind changing the paradigm with our partners, suppliers, and with the legacy of HBCUs. On the partner front, we are putting $50 million towards helping to support the diversification of our partner ecosystem. We have put another $50 million into the investment in innovation in Black founders and start-ups. We have and will continue to invest in the legacy if historically Black colleges and what they provide in terms of a pipeline of extraordinary talent for the world.
And then, when you think internally, we are absolutely committed to ensuring that we have a diverse pipeline from the top to the bottom of the company and ensuring that there’s an abundance of African American, Black talent at every level. We are going to do our part in ensuring that we’re shaping the mindset, skill set, tool set, and learning around bias and discrimination across not only our employees but offering that to our partners, our suppliers, and then we will always be focused on ensuring that we’ve got diversity at the board level.
These are just a few, and it’s just the beginning.
MS. MESERVE: What are the biggest takeaways, the biggest lessons that other companies could draw on, companies who are also on this journey?
MS. SLATE: You know, Jeanne, I think there’s four. The first one is to get close to the challenges that you want to solve. The second is to ensure that you are very clear in your beliefs because those beliefs will drive your actions and ultimately what you will yield in your results. The third is to set actions that are tied to those beliefs and your super power as a company, and if you don’t know what that is, just look to your purpose. And the fourth is stay true to your aspiration and be flexible in the detail, and the reason why is you’re going to learn a lot along the way. And you need to give yourself license to course-correct and change and ensure that what you deliver is an extraordinary outcome in service of something, so much bigger than yourselves.
MS. MESERVE: Shari Slate of Cisco, thanks so much for joining me here today.
And I will now hand things back to The Washington Post.
[Video plays]
MS. GIVHAN: Welcome back. If you’re just joining us, I’m Robin Givhan, senior critic-at-large, and it’s my pleasure to welcome the president of the Ford Foundation, Darren Walker, back to Post Live. Welcome back.
MR. WALKER: To be on this program, it’s a real honor.
MS. GIVHAN: Thank you so much for being with me this afternoon.
You have always been a thought leader in the world of philanthropy, innovative, and I’m curious, with the COVID, the coronavirus pandemic, with everything that’s happened last year in terms of racial justice protests, I mean, how have you adapted? How has the Ford Foundation adapted?
MR. WALKER: Well, I think we, in some ways, Robin, are doubling down on what we were already doing. So, the Ford Foundation had major grant-making programs on issues of racial justice, on issues of policing, on issues of inequality in assets and wealth, and so, for us, the horrific reckoning of this past year did not throw us off of our game or require us to create a new program or a new grant-making strategy.
It is no surprise to any foundation that has worked on racial justice, the results of this pandemic, the impacts of this pandemic are consistent with the impacts across other areas of deprivation, of poverty, of exclusion. The people who are most often hurt or left out and left behind are Black people, Brown people, people of color, immigrants, and people who have historically been excluded from this idea of shared prosperity that we have in America.
So, for the Ford Foundation, this required us, of course, to double down, but then doubling down did require some new innovation, most notably in the issuance of our social bond.
MS. GIVHAN: Please explain what the social bonds are. The first thing that came to my mind were like Bowie Bonds. So, what does a social bond do?
MR. WALKER: Well, a “social bond” is a technical term that requires for a public debt offering a bond, a warranty, that the proceeds of the debt offering are used for a social purpose.
And so, the Ford Foundation issued a $1 billion social bond. It was the first of its kind, and the proceeds of that were invested in many of the organizations we support, such as organizations like the Equal Justice Initiative, Bryan Stevenson’s organization down in Montgomery, or the NAACP Legal Defense Fund or many other organizations last year that were engaged both in COVID relief, so food insecurity, helping to close the gap around issues of rent evictions and things like that, as well as support for organizations working on the front line, those marching in the streets, those grassroots organizations demanding accountability.
MS. GIVHAN: I mean, this really speaks to, one, your background on Wall Street but also your belief in capitalism and the belief that capitalism can be directed both for profit and for good. I mean, why are you so firmly on the side of capitalism?
MR. WALKER: Well, I’m a believer in capitalism, Robin. That’s for sure, but I also believe that capitalism, unless it is reformed, will be challenged in fundamental ways that it never has been challenged in this country.
And let’s start with that, then. You know, we’ve actually never given capitalism a chance in America. Capitalism in the 19th century was capitalism with an economy that didn’t pay for labor. That’s not capitalism. That’s just called “slavery.” That’s not capitalism.
Capitalism is not in the 20th century drawing red lines around Black neighborhoods and saying private capital, government security for mortgages will not go into those communities. So that’s not capitalism to do redlining.
So, we need to–if we are to be true to capitalism, we need to take the larger challenge of racism out of capitalism, because Adam Smith never envisioned capitalism being a form of an economic system based on slavery, based on racism. So, let us actually give capitalism a chance, and if we do that, it means we will give everyone an opportunity to participate in the idea of shared prosperity, which capitalism can generate. But it can only generate that when it has a policy environment that recognizes that, the pernicious impact of growing inequality, the impact on our democratic society of growing inequality. So, there’s a real challenge in this moment we’re living in right now, Robin, for capitalism, and we capitalists, if we are to be true to the idea that undergirds this, we’ve got some reforming to do.
MS. GIVHAN: In many ways, what you just said, it’s getting at the idea, the concerns about systemic racism and other prejudices within the system, but doing so in a way that is in a language of business people and economists. Do you think that just the way in which we talk about inequality is almost as important as the way in which we try to solve it?
MR. WALKER: Well, I believe that language matters, and I believe that in this country, we are attached to narratives. And some people see these narratives through a particular lens.
And so, for example, I have friends who I know grew up in the South, and Thomas Jefferson was a great icon. Now, Thomas Jefferson was certainly one of our Founding Fathers and a genius and an amazing man, but he was also very problematic. But one thing Jefferson did, even though he was a racist and even though he said the most vile and vicious things about Black people, in spite of the fact that he had children with a Black woman–but that’s another story–what he said about America was the work of America is to build a just nation. He said that to his friend Samuel Du Pont. I want to hold Jefferson to his words, and so language matters.
And so, yes, Robin, when I talk about capitalism, I don’t want to talk about capitalism as an activist. I want to talk about capitalism as a capitalist in the way in which it ought to be executed and implemented in a democratic society, and we are not implementing capitalism in a way that works for most workers, and certainly, it does not work for our democratic process.
If you look right now, Robin, at what’s happening in this country around voter suppression and the silence of corporate America in the wake of all the performative acts last year, the number of CEOs, the number of corporate leaders who said Black Lives Matter, who issued, some of them literally doing Golden Globe, Academy Award quality performances, where are those voices now as we are seeing across this country an effort to exclude Americans from our most important and hallowed responsibility? And that is of voting. Who, who believes in democracy, would have a right, a desire to see fewer Americans vote?
I love my country, and because I love my country, I want everyone to participate in its most important responsibility, and yet we are seeing efforts. And I do wonder where are the capitalists, where are the CEOs and corporate leaders in this moment.
MS. GIVHAN: Do you think that in somewhere between making statements in support of Black lives, making statements in support of the AAPI community, and then actually sort of putting some skin in the game–what happens? What goes missing? I mean, are corporations just afraid?
MR. WALKER: I think what partly goes missing is a recognition that race and White supremacy have a hold.
As a gay man, I watched with great appreciation and gratitude, the number of corporations who spoke out against anti-LGBT bills across the country. Many, many CEOs and corporations were working with the Human Rights Campaign and other organizations to publicly speak out against this effort.
I have not seen that. If you speak to Sherrilyn Ifill at the Legal Defense Fund or any of the leaders in the Civil Rights organizations, they have no help from corporate America in this regard, and so I wonder, Robin, what is it that keeps leaders from stepping forward?
I believe it is, in part, that they are afraid because there could be repercussions, and so I am very mindful and respectful that it is not easy to be a leader of a public entity today. But we need courage. We need moral leadership in a moment like this more than ever, and without moral leadership, without people with courage stepping forward to call out injustice and hate, America will not be America.
MS. GIVHAN: Why is it incumbent on corporations to be moral, to step into that vacuum and speak?
MR. WALKER: Well, corporations are not the only entities, and CEOs are not the only leaders.
MS. GIVHAN: Of course.
MR. WALKER: But we know from the research, from Pew, from the Edelman Trust Barometer index that corporations and CEOs are important influencers in society and have a tremendous impact, and we’ve seen that. We’ve seen it when corporations have taken a stand. We’ve seen how bad ideas, hateful ideas have stepped down and stepped back and away because these leaders, political leaders advancing these ideas were concerned about the loss of jobs and the economic impact.
So, it’s not to say that corporations are the only entities, but corporations in a democratic, capitalist society play an incredibly outsized role in influencing public policy and mobilizing support for good ideas and, hopefully, ensuring that bad ideas are stopped.
MS. GIVHAN: What if one of the things that you’ve written is about power and privilege? You said those of us with power and privilege must grapple with a more profound question. What are willing to give up? I mean, that really sort of cuts at the heart of the greatest challenge when it comes to equity, a sense that there is a give and a take. There is a balance. I mean, can you talk a little bit more about that idea of sacrifice?
MR. WALKER: Well, it’s–yes, sacrifice is important. I mean–
MS. GIVHAN: And I’m not sure that’s even the right word, “sacrifice.”
MR. WALKER: Well, but sacrifice as a commitment to service–and these are words, Robin, we don’t hear very much in our public discourse anymore, leaders talking about service, sacrifice, commitment, selflessness.
When I grew up reading the words of Dr. King and John Kennedy, these were the ideas that shaped my world view. These were the ideas that impacted me. I fear that too many leaders today grew up reading Ayn Rand and Milton Friedman and the cult of the individual has become de rigueur and has become so deeply embedded in the American psyche that collective common good, the commonwealth, these ideas that John Adams wrote about centuries ago, which are foundational to our democracy, have fallen out of favor and in favor of the kind of what I believe to be harmful, pernicious, greedy, selfish ways in which some of these philosophers have impacted people.
So, I do worry that we are losing our way as a country, and that in order for us to be able to fully have the opportunity to be realized across this country–because remember this is not a country that lacks in talent. Talent is evenly spread across America. Opportunity is not.
And so, the sacrifice that I as a privileged person has to acknowledge is that in this time of growing inequality, my privilege has been compounded, and the disadvantage of people who have been disadvantaged historically is also compounded.
And so, we’ve seen in the last year during a pandemic when the wealth of the wealthiest has grown by $3 trillion, and we know the status of the average American who without the stimulus that we have experienced in this last year would literally have fallen off a precipice.
So, it is about asking ourselves of what might we need to give up to have a more shared sense of both prosperity and our future together. We are interdependent people, no matter what our leaders tell us, and our journey as Americans is a shared journey. And we must take a perspective of shared interest and the commonwealth to inspire our future direction as a country, and the efforts of our leaders need to reflect that.
MS. GIVHAN: You have tentacles not only in the world of business but also in the arts world. I’m wondering if there are elements of the arts where–the visual arts, the literary arts that can inform how we think about policy and how we think about equity.
MR. WALKER: Well, I think the arts play a critical role, and we know from the literature that the arts, when young people are exposed to the arts, they are more empathetic. They are more able to reason. They are more willing to embrace and engage in diversity and diverse experiences, and it’s why, Robin, everyone we know, probably, wants their kids and grandkids to have access to the arts. Every parent and grandparent knows that, and what the research tells us is that these young people who are exposed in many ways will be a more informed, a more empathetic, and if we’re to have justice in America, we must have a society and particularly our leaders who possess basic fundamental empathy, who can see the humanity in others.
I have seen leaders who use language that speaks of other human beings in the most inhumane, disrespectful, horrific ways, and, you know, when I have experienced that kind of a leader, I know this is not a person who has ever experienced beautiful poetry. This is not a person who has ever read and reflected on great literature. This is not a person who has ever stood in front of a beautiful painting and reflected on the meaning of that painting and the meaning of that painting in their own life and the life of others. This is what a society and leaders who don’t have exposure to the arts and humanities–this is how they express themselves too often.
So, I’m a believer in the arts, and I see the connection to justice. My only concern today, Robin, is that there are a lot of efforts to bring the arts, in particular, monuments and markers and memorials that recognize African Americans and our heritage, which is a good thing–I’m co-chairing with Phylicia Rashad, the African American Heritage Action Fund at the National Trust for Historic Preservation, and we aim to significantly increase the number of markers and memorials on the public registry.
Only 2 percent of the Interior Department’s registry of important places and markers are African American, and so we want to increase that number. But what we also want to remind people is that it is not just about the historic place. It’s not just about the monument, because for all of us, we must understand that historic preservation of African American spaces is also a commitment to justice, and so it’s not enough to build a monument.
And I’ve seen some leaders attach themselves and say, “I’m for justice. Look at me. I’m supporting this monument to Dr. King,” and at the same time in their public policy positions and the way they vote, they’re undermining Dr. King’s legacy. And so, it’s not enough to invest or give a grant to a monument, a statue to a Black leader and then do things in terms of your public positions and legislative record that actually undermine his legacy.
MS. GIVHAN: Symbolically, I was reading that you had a Kehinde Wiley portrait installed at the Ford Foundation headquarters, and I was curious. As you said, making that connection between this monumental painting, lifting a Black woman to heroism, and what that–how that’s interpreted in your vision for the Ford Foundation. Can you connect those two things as we have to wrap up, I’m afraid?
MR. WALKER: I’m sorry, too. So, I’ll be brief. Sorry, Robin.
Yeah. I think what we did–there was a Henry Ford collection that was all European, and there was one woman, Sheila Hicks, in the collection of over 400 works. I proposed to the trustees that we deaccession the collection and that we acquire new works, consistent with our 21st century social justice mission. And, fortunately, the trustees agreed, and so we were able through that sale to generate the funds to acquire over 300 works by artists, significantly represented artists of color and women, international artists, queer artists, and it’s been highly successful.
The Kehinde Wiley in our lobby of Wanda Crichlow, the royal duchess, is my favorite and is the favorite of most of our visitors, but it is about elevating and lifting up the idea of Black womanhood in America, which has been a fraught narrative. And for me, this painting embodies the idea of intelligence, beauty, determination, grit, a resilience to the forces that have sought to undermine her, and yet she prevails with dignity, with elegance, with beauty, with glamor and intelligence. And so that painting has become a moniker and probably the most–I think in my view, the most beautiful painting in our collection.
MS. GIVHAN: Thank you so much. It has really just been a pleasure chatting with you, and I thank you all for joining us this afternoon.
Please come back at one o’clock when my colleague, David Ignatius, will interview former Secretary of Energy Ernest Moniz and Duke Energy CEO Lynn Good.
Once again, I’m Robin Givhan, and thank you again for joining us.